Comments on: Thumbs Down for Clojure http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 Because Computing Doesn't Have to Suck. Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:32:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Stanislav http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-1210 Stanislav Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:19:05 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-1210 Dear Yesudeep, Clojure was/is being hyped in some quarters as "the future of Lisp." This post was a reaction to this. Yours, -S. Datskovskiy Dear Yesudeep,

Clojure was/is being hyped in some quarters as “the future of Lisp.” This post was a reaction to this.

Yours,
-S. Datskovskiy

]]> By: Yesudeep Mangalapilly http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-1209 Yesudeep Mangalapilly Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:15:06 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-1209 Does it matter that Clojure is not a Lisp? I don't want Clojure to be C, Lisp, or Java. I want Clojure to be Clojure. If a programming language helps you achieve your goals, by all means, use it! If it doesn't, what on Earth is stopping you from using another? Cheers. Does it matter that Clojure is not a Lisp? I don’t want Clojure to be C, Lisp, or Java. I want Clojure to be Clojure. If a programming language helps you achieve your goals, by all means, use it! If it doesn’t, what on Earth is stopping you from using another?

Cheers.

]]> By: Aravindh Johendran http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-1062 Aravindh Johendran Mon, 03 May 2010 18:50:36 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-1062 sorry about the apostrophes in the wrong places and other such grammatical errors sorry about the apostrophes in the wrong places and other such grammatical errors

]]> By: Aravindh Johendran http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-798 Aravindh Johendran Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:11:42 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-798 You have to understand that the brackets offer immense power. Once you grok what the brackets help achieve, you will know what "code is date and data is code" means. You have to understand that the brackets offer immense power. Once you grok what the brackets help achieve, you will know what “code is date and data is code” means.

]]> By: Aravindh Johendran http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-797 Aravindh Johendran Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:59:46 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-797 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- André Thieme says: June 28, 2009 at 9:32 am Aah, the dead body is still twitching ;-) What you are doing is to some degree misleading. You are talking about Clojure when you in reality mean its current implementation. Some may think that you were talking about the language Clojure. That however can be implemented in principle on any VM. For example in the VM of Allegro CL, or in a Scheme VM, or in the one of P-----ython, Erlang, etc… -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: I do like clojure and i find that some of the concepts are expanding my thinking. Rich Hickey's efforts are awesome and I appreciate his efforts and the communitiy's. Most parts of clojure are beautiful lisp. I feel André Thieme's comment may not be accurate. There is a LOT of Java that seems necessary inside clojure code. Everyone avoids talking about it and it seems maliciously hidden when people talk about clojure being a lisp. All the Integer and String functions for example. Writing Java is being encouraged using the Java interop mechanisms instead of wrapping everything under lisp macros. Rationale being everything under the sun doesn't have to be made to look like lisp. Sure ..... but have java inside lisp code ?? Java is UGLY how much ever cool interops they add in clojure. Rich Hickey talks about why the JVM is awesome and clojure hugs the JVM as platform, but the truth is that Java is unavoidable inside clojure once you want to add more String, Date, integer functions and so on. Everything from the type system to exceptions. Inside the repl, I love to look at the types of some return values. All of them are exposed as Java classes in clojure. It doesn't have it's own proper type system, or at least shows them to me in terms of Java. One CANNOT do anything significant work in clojure without knowing significant amount of Java and JVM's inner workings. And I do not even want to go into all the friggin XML that one has to encounter because of it's pervasiveness in Java/JVM world. As for clojure being written on top of cl, scheme, erlang, pythis, etc ......... what? you are going to add interops to all of these languages? Nice. I will now have portable code. ----------------- Sorry, I had to vent. Clojure is awesome but it has it's issues ——————————————————————————–
André Thieme says:
June 28, 2009 at 9:32 am

Aah, the dead body is still twitching ;-)
What you are doing is to some degree misleading. You are talking about Clojure when you in reality mean its current implementation. Some may think that you were talking about the language Clojure. That however can be implemented in principle on any VM. For example in the VM of Allegro CL, or in a Scheme VM, or in the one of P—–ython, Erlang, etc…
————————————————————————–

DISCLAIMER: I do like clojure and i find that some of the concepts are expanding my thinking. Rich Hickey’s efforts are awesome and I appreciate his efforts and the communitiy’s. Most parts of clojure are beautiful lisp.

I feel André Thieme’s comment may not be accurate. There is a LOT of Java that seems necessary inside clojure code. Everyone avoids talking about it and it seems maliciously hidden when people talk about clojure being a lisp.
All the Integer and String functions for example. Writing Java is being encouraged using the Java interop mechanisms instead of wrapping everything under lisp macros. Rationale being everything under the sun doesn’t have to be made to look like lisp. Sure ….. but have java inside lisp code ?? Java is UGLY how much ever cool interops they add in clojure.
Rich Hickey talks about why the JVM is awesome and clojure hugs the JVM as platform, but the truth is that Java is unavoidable inside clojure once you want to add more String, Date, integer functions and so on. Everything from the type system to exceptions. Inside the repl, I love to look at the types of some return values. All of them are exposed as Java classes in clojure. It doesn’t have it’s own proper type system, or at least shows them to me in terms of Java.

One CANNOT do anything significant work in clojure without knowing significant amount of Java and JVM’s inner workings.
And I do not even want to go into all the friggin XML that one has to encounter because of it’s pervasiveness in Java/JVM world.

As for clojure being written on top of cl, scheme, erlang, pythis, etc ……… what? you are going to add interops to all of these languages? Nice. I will now have portable code.

—————–
Sorry, I had to vent. Clojure is awesome but it has it’s issues

]]> By: Loper OS » Nock Nock (Part 1) http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-384 Loper OS » Nock Nock (Part 1) Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:29:57 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-384 [...] is worth noting that nothing like the above could have been written in Clojure, for it lacks user-defined reader macros. [1] This is a “threaded” native-code [...] [...] is worth noting that nothing like the above could have been written in Clojure, for it lacks user-defined reader macros. [1] This is a “threaded” native-code [...]

]]> By: John http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-275 John Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:02:22 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-275 Just an edit: I meant "the java command on your PATH", and not classpath. Damn you Java and your classpath! Just an edit: I meant “the java command on your PATH”, and not classpath. Damn you Java and your classpath!

]]> By: John http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-274 John Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:01:19 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-274 Actually Clojure is pretty easy to install and use. The thing is that it's Java software, so you just need a few things. First you need a JVM with the <code>java</code> command on your classpath. Then you need the Clojure source or jar file. Then you need to run Java with Clojure on the classpath. If you have extra Clojure/Java libs it makes sense to put them all in the same place and write a short (maybe five line) shell script that builds a classpath string for Clojure and the libraries you wan to use, and starts Java. This is all stuff that would be familiar to someone with a bit of Java experience. In fact it's conceptually simpler than the [download, tar -xvf, ./configure (with options?), make, make install (sudo or not?), is it on my PATH yet?] process that you have to go through to get most other FOSS software installed and running. I'll agree that clojure.org doesn't really hold your hand on the Java stuff, which is too bad, because your points are valid and your experience is probably more typical than Clojure people want to admit. Actually Clojure is pretty easy to install and use. The thing is that it’s Java software, so you just need a few things. First you need a JVM with the java command on your classpath. Then you need the Clojure source or jar file. Then you need to run Java with Clojure on the classpath. If you have extra Clojure/Java libs it makes sense to put them all in the same place and write a short (maybe five line) shell script that builds a classpath string for Clojure and the libraries you wan to use, and starts Java.

This is all stuff that would be familiar to someone with a bit of Java experience. In fact it’s conceptually simpler than the [download, tar -xvf, ./configure (with options?), make, make install (sudo or not?), is it on my PATH yet?] process that you have to go through to get most other FOSS software installed and running. I’ll agree that clojure.org doesn’t really hold your hand on the Java stuff, which is too bad, because your points are valid and your experience is probably more typical than Clojure people want to admit.

]]> By: Brian http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-240 Brian Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:58:49 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-240 Lisp all the way down? As Clojure in Clojure progresses, increasing amounts of it should be rewritten in Clojure so it would be lisp all the way down to the reflective wrapper at the bottom. Lisp all the way down? As Clojure in Clojure progresses, increasing amounts of it should be rewritten in Clojure so it would be lisp all the way down to the reflective wrapper at the bottom.

]]> By: Stanislav http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-163 Stanislav Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:29:09 +0000 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42#comment-163 I also drive an internal-combustion car. I also drive an internal-combustion car.

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